Social Emotional Learning Topic: Trust

TRUST: 5 Key Lesson Takeaways

1. Real trust cannot be one-sided. It is mutual.

2. For your child to trust you, you have to demonstrate that you have your child’s best interest in mind and give your child the space to build self-confidence.

3. Demonstrate that you are consistent in your behavior and reactions.

4. Teachers: support students’ process of inquiry on content and authority.

5. Parents: role modeling is trusting in yourself.

Transcript for Podcast Lesson on Trust with Audra

Jenny Woo I'm Jenny Woo, and we have Audra Irvine with us to talk about trust. Audra, as an experienced teacher of high school biology, anatomy, and physiology in Massachusetts. She is a Bostonian at heart and has a Master's Degree at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. She is passionate about improving teaching practice with cognitive neuroscience, including the ways in which mutual trust can benefit and motivate learning in the classroom. And this is especially important as a teacher of teens. 

Jenny Woo [00:01:29] Welcome, Audra. 

Audra Irvine [00:01:31] Hi, Jenny. Thanks for having me. 

Jenny Woo [00:01:36] So tell us, what does it mean to have trust and to be trusted? 

Audra Irvine [00:01:41] I think that trust can be defined in different ways by different people. But at its core, essentially, trust is being able to rely on other people and for people to be able to rely on you. So it means that your actions are dependable and that your words are trustworthy. And that really comes with time. 

Jenny Woo [00:02:01] Yeah. So tell me about the timepiece. This process. How do you foster trust in your students? 

Audra Irvine [00:02:08] Yeah. So trust, I mean, that's difficult to have on day one with students. I think just like relationships between any two people or groups of people, it has to come with time and experience. And people need to feel that your actions aren't dependable and your words are trustworthy. And that can only come with experience that reflects that. 

Jenny Woo [00:02:30] Tell me, what type of experience do you provide or help your students embark on to build trust within themselves and with you-- and with each other? 

Audra Irvine [00:02:41] Yeah, I mean, this is a difficult topic. But I think that trust is something that we don't often associate with learning at the secondary level. You know, high school students-- people seem to or tend to focus on content, content, college preparation. But I think sometimes we forget or we let fall by the wayside. The way that trust has a huge motivational factor for students. When they feel like they trust their instructor, not just their content knowledge, but the fact that the instructor genuinely has their best interests at heart, then there's so much more likely to have more buy-in and be motivated to do well. And that doesn't necessarily mean blindly trusting content and not thinking critically. But I think that if you do it the right way, and you build mutual respect between student and instructor, you can lead them through their own self-inquiry in a way that helps them build trust in you, but also trust in themselves and their own ability to rationalize and judge. And that really builds confidence, too. 

Jenny Woo [00:03:49] Yeah. You know, it's so interesting, developmentally speaking, because I think of my children who are still in lower-grade schools and kindergarten, and it's sort of-- during that age, they have such blind trust in the adult figure. Whether it's parents, teachers-- that love and that trust; “okay, whatever you say is right.” But as they grow older, they become these monsters of knowing it all. 

Audra Irvine [00:04:16] Yeah.

Jenny Woo [00:04:17] You know, like smarty pants snapping back. And “why should I trust you?” My son would say, “you're not the boss of me,” which is good. 

Audra Irvine [00:04:28] Right. But then until they had a certain age and that facade sort of crumbles and they realize, “wait, adults aren't totally infallible.” “Maybe my parents aren't totally right all the time.” And maybe “how do I know my teacher knows better than me?” They start to build their own sort of autonomy and sometimes get rebellious. 

Jenny Woo [00:04:49] Yeah, how do you take advantage of that rebellion? I know it's so hard. How, I mean I can really see this as good skill sets, right? You want people to -- like you said, inquiry -- to ask questions. But when they are really in the moment of becoming those know-it-alls, talking back to you, and questioning what you're saying, how do you gain their confidence, their trust? 

Audra Irvine [00:05:19] I mean, that's a great question. I think that instinctively or intuitively, most of us would want to push back harder. And maybe put your foot down more and tighten the reins a bit. But really, in my own experiences with students, is that you really don't want to push too hard because it can sort of have the opposite effect. And that, if you give them your trust in small ways and let them come to their own conclusions through their own experiences, that your words and your advice are reliable. And I think that most kids will come to that conclusion on their own. I mean, depending on the severity of the nature of the experience of the situation. You give them a little bit of wiggle room. I, at least, find that with students, “don't push too hard.” But if they are willing to listen at least, then they can come to the conclusion on their own after their own experiences. “Wait. Those words were reliable. That does make sense to me.” And it makes it more that you trust their own ability to reason and rationalize. And in turn, you get that pride at the end when they start to see that you do have their best interests at heart. 

Jenny Woo [00:06:32] Yeah. You know, that's really interesting. 

Jenny Woo [00:06:34] You said something sort of, in order to have them trust you, you have to give them the trust first. 

Audra Irvine [00:06:41] Right. 

Jenny Woo [00:06:44] It's such a reciprocal relationship. 

Audra Irvine [00:06:45] Definitely.

Jenny Woo [00:06:46] And speaking of giving them the trust, it's also a component of helping them to trust in themselves.

Audra Irvine [00:06:53] Exactly.

Jenny Woo [00:06:54] And their own judgment--

Audra Irvine [00:06:55] Which can be so useful or can be so, such a confidence boost, really. I mean, how else do you get? How do you build self-confidence as an adult, as a parent, as a teacher, as a child? How do you build self-confidence without self-trust? That really only comes with experience. And the experience of, in the reward of senior judgment comes to positive fruition.

Jenny Woo [00:07:17] That's true. 

Jenny Woo [00:07:18] And if you're always doing things or bossing the kids around, you don't give them that opportunity, as you mentioned. When they embark on that autonomies stage that they-- they don't know who they are. And what they can do their capability, right? So, I am actually curious, as a teacher in the classroom, how does that behaviorally manifest? So when-- the first day of school, you get tons of students in. Can you tell who are the ones that have that? I'm so curious. 

Audra Irvine [00:07:51] Yeah. I mean, it definitely varies so much, but maybe not on the first day. But like we said developmentally at that age -- especially adolescence, early adolescence -- there's a bit of that questioning of authority and that's healthy. That's good. Especially as a science teacher, I want to make sure that I don't ever shoot down inquiry or discourage questioning authority. And I inherently come across as an authoritative figure just because of the nature of the classroom dynamic. I'm the instructor. And so, it's hard to walk the line between encouraging inquiry, but also getting them to trust my content knowledge and trust in the ways that I want them to come across and explore the content on their own. But like I said, it takes time. You probably can't tell much on the first day. 

Jenny Woo [00:08:41] That's true. That’s fair.

Audra Irvine [00:08:43] But I think that on the first day, I make sure, and I think a lot of good teachers to make sure that you at least explicitly mention and it's OK to say, even if it comes across cheesy, that you care about them, you trust in them and that you have their interests at heart, you want them to do well, you're happy to have them in class and that they're such capable kids. If they roll their eyes on the first few days or even throughout the year. That's fine. 

Audra Irvine [00:09:06] But you build that trust and you back up what you said on those days by continuing with reliable behaviors throughout the year. And letting them question and seek answers on their own. And not stifling questions or reacting to behavior that can easily come across as extremely insubordinate and sometimes disrespectful. It's hard, but it takes time. 

Jenny Woo [00:09:32] Yeah. So that's taking the time piece. As parents, we’re stuck. It's going to be there. So any really usable advice we can take on a daily basis and how we can foster this trust? This trust, really actually in ourselves as parents. And the trust that we help our children see that we really have confidence in them, trusting them. How do we do that? 

Audra Irvine [00:10:04] Honestly, for me, that feels like, that's probably toughest for parents because it involves self-compassion. 

Audra Irvine [00:10:10] And parents are, most parents are so concerned with the well-being of their children that they forget sometimes that, “you're doing a good job, you're doing okay.” If you're constantly questioning yourself and your ability to parent and the decisions you're making on behalf of your kids, I can see how it would cause you to lose confidence. But I would say that you can harness the ability to constantly be proud of your kids. I mean, most parents are so beaming with pride for their kids in small and large ways. And if you can try to do what seems to be selfish by reminding yourself, that's a moment of pride for you, too, as a parent. That's a small victory for you, too. For you to take a minute and hold that hold onto that thought. “Hey, I did some good here. I'm doing all right. Look, look at this. Look at where you are raising this kid together. That's our kid.” If you can take that moment of self-compassion and pride as a small victory for you, too, I think it goes a long way for you and the kid. And the same with me and students to build confidence in my own ability and judgment in the classroom. 

Audra Irvine [00:11:13] Same thing with parents and their own ability to loosen or tighten the reins depending on the situation. Same thing with the kids. 

Audra Irvine [00:11:21] Your self-confidence with self-trust.

Jenny Woo [00:11:23] That is such good advice. I think as a parent, at the end of the day as I go through my categories of what I've done, my inventories of actions, and I always tend to operate from a place of deficit. 

Audra Irvine [00:11:40] Like too hard on yourself. 

Jenny Woo [00:11:41] Right. Like, I wish I would have done this. I had this on my list, but I never got to it. And these are really specifically toward my actions with my kids. But I love what you're saying is honoring and celebrating the stuff that you have done. Big or small. And so I think with that, I'm going to give everybody homework-- but good homework. And that tonight or just every night for the rest of this week or this month, try to reflect at the end of the day and just come up with one thing that you're really proud of yourself for doing with your children. 

Audra Irvine [00:12:18] That's excellent advice.

Jenny Woo [00:12:19] Right? 

Audra Irvine [00:12:20] Like for anyone, really. I mean, this is really a minute to reflect. We're all so busy all the time. And ambition is such a good thing. But you can really only benefit from the confidence in yourself. If you take a minute to reflect on it and pat yourself on the back. And that's not being selfish. That's being smart. 

Jenny Woo [00:12:39] Yes. Yes. I love that. So we can all be smart together and with that. Thank you so much, Audra for being here. 

Audra Irvine [00:12:45] Very well. Thanks for having me, Jenny. And thank you for tuning in to 52 Essential Conversations.

Social Emotional Learning Topic: Stress Management

STRESS MANAGEMENT: 5 Key Lesson Takeaways

1. How to Recognize the Signs of Stress: interrupted sleep, not being able to calm down, irritability and overreacting, eating too much or not enough, increased blood pressure. Source

2. Managing Stress:

   • Take a moment to collect yourself: don’t have to solve everything right in the moment

   • Sometimes, it is more effective to take a step back from the conflict

   • Half an hour to a few hours to re-compose yourself together

   • Consider what you want to say in order to not use stressful chemicals that have been released into your body

   • Source for Managing Stress: (“Avoid, Alter, Adapt, & Accept”)

3. Different types of stress: productive stress, tolerable stress, toxic stress

   • Productive stress: motivates us. Examples: running a race or playing a game

   • Tolerable Stress: have a buffer-- someone to help you and assist with coping. Examples: illness of a loved one or an injury

   • Toxic Stress: the absence of protection or support. Examples: violent neighborhood or extreme poverty

4. Is Your Child An Orchid or a Dandelion?

   • Dandelion Children: resilient and will grow in any soil

     1. can get along with many people

     2. slow to recover, slow to warm up

     3. usually able to cope with hardships

   • Orchid Children: highly reactive or sensitive

     1. if given the right support, they can blossom and bloom

     2. sensitive and much more vulnerable to stress

5. Stress Management Tools and Resources

   1. Harvard University Center for the Developing Child

   2. Headspace, also available for children

   3. Conversations between parents and their children: 52 Essential Conversations by Jenny Woo

---

Book Recommendations:

Breathe Like a Bear: 30 Mindful Moments for Kids to Feel Calm and Focused Anytime, Anywhere

A beautifully illustrated collection of mindfulness exercises designed to teach kids (and adults) techniques for managing their bodies, breath, and emotions.

The Gardner and the Carpenter: What the New Science of Child Development Tells Us About the Relationship Between Parents and Children

Hear one of the world’s leading child psychologists shatter the myth of “good parenting” and help us understand how to best support our children’s needs.

The Orchid and the Dandelion: Why Some Children Struggle and How All Can Thrive

This is a book that offers hope and a pathway to success for parents, teachers, psychologists, and child development experts coping with difficult children.

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Transcript for Podcast Lesson on Stress Management with Kara

Jenny Woo: Today we're talking about stress management with Kara. Kara has been a High School History teacher for more than 10 years both domestically in the US and internationally in Israel. While getting her master's at the Harvard Graduate School of Education with a focus on developmental cognitive neuroscience, Kara has also researched adolescent development stress and mindfulness. Welcome.

 Kara Mohler: Thank you for having me, Jenny. I'm happy to be here. 

Jenny Woo: Tell us about stress management. How do we do that?

 Kara Mohler: It's really hard but it's something that's critical for everyone to figure out for themselves, especially because when you are stressed, it bleeds over into other areas of your life. And if you're a parent that means that your kids are seeing that stress also.

 Jenny Woo: Tell me a little bit more about recognizing that I'm stressed and how do I go about learning what is it that I need and what works for me.

Kara Mohler: Signs either in yourself or things that you might see in your children would be interrupted sleep, not being able to calm down, or being irritable and overreacting. It's definitely a huge sign of stress if you're snapping and reacting quickly to your kids or if you notice that your kids are really irritable. Another major sign of stress can be either eating too much or not eating enough, skipping meals that sort of thing is definitely a sign that maybe you're too stressed. The other physical markers that you see when you get stressed are increased blood pressure. Your heart pounding. Some people get anxiety dreams in the middle of the night and aren't quite sure. That might just be your body trying to tell you that you're stressed and in the body,  what actually happens is that your cortisol levels go up when you're stressed, and too much cortisol over time really impedes your ability to recover quickly with toxic stress if that last for years and years.

Jenny Woo: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and as you're naming all these signs, I can't help but checking off a lot of those myself. And I hate to say this but, I personally as a parent feel really stressed, and I wonder how I manage my own stress and my children's stress. At times, I feel like I need to do my self-care, but I feel really selfish in doing that. What should I do?

Kara Mohler: Yeah, I bet that you and every other parent on the earth feel that way. I think that what you're doing with your cards is so great with your Essential Conversations cards because you've got lots of tips for parents. Remind parents that they can take a moment to collect themselves that they don't have to solve everything right in the moment. Sometimes it's even better to step back from conflict or not react right in the moment if you're upset with something that your child did, but it's OK to take a little while, to take half an hour, to take a few hours to get yourself together and really consider what you want to say so that you're not snapping and you're not using all of those stressful chemicals that have been released into your body to react.

Jenny Woo: It reminded me of research that I recently heard about something like it's actually better to reflect on something that you've done later on than in the moment because your body is calmer, and I can certainly think of plenty of times where I really was kind of mean to my children and to myself. In that moment, not just feeling mean but also feeling guilty of being mean. So that sort of snowball effect of negative emotion. It made me felt really bad like I needed to rectify it, but I didn't know how in the moment.

Kara Mohler: Right. Stepping back is really critical and also just being attuned to your kids. They are looking to you, they're looking to you for their own reactions and so attunement with how they're feeling but also recognizing that they're going to look at how you are reacting for cues about how they should be reacting to the situation. It's also really important to understand. If you're stressed and snapping, even if you're not stressed and snapping with them, but if you're in the car and you've got road rage or you know you're making dinner and you're angry about something in the house, your kids will pick that up.

Jenny Woo: I can't help but ask you this because you were on Jeopardy. You actually won. You did, so no need to be humble that that's quite an accomplishment. I can only imagine being physically standing on that and having that clicker in your head. That is an incredible moment of stress. How did you handle it? What works for you?

Kara Mohler: Thinking back to that moment, it was a while ago, that was almost 10 years ago. But when it did happen for sure I had the racing heart and the palms and everything. I think that what I did in the moment was take deep breaths. Use the adrenaline in the moment but then I remember that after the show was over going to the beach in Santa Monica and just calming down with my mom and having a nice meal, having a nice glass of wine to celebrate. Really taking the time to let that stress drift away because you can't be keyed up so much in that moment.

 Jenny Woo: Yeah, and that actually reminds me of how this could tie into building resilience. Because there are good stress and bad stress. How do you distinguish that tension between the two? And how do you manage it in your students to give them high expectations, but to support them in an age-appropriate and maturity appropriate way?

Kara Mohler: Parents are the most important support system for their kids. But teachers play an important role. As kids get older, kids start to put more stress on their grades on themselves. It's important to understand what the different levels of stress are. There's productive stress, which thinks about running a race or playing a game, something that actually is good for you. A little bit of stress is fine. There's tolerable stress which basically means that you have a buffer that you have someone to help you cope with the stress and deal with it. And that's exactly where parents can come in. If your kid seems a little bit too overwhelmed, then having a parent to be that source of resilience and really to help the child support and to think through ideas and brainstorm what they could do for the problem is really important. The level that you were talking about toxic stress is really something to be concerned about because kids when they're between three and six, it's a sensitive period for the development of their brain. If they're stressed too often, those stress chemicals actually inhibit the growth of some areas of their brain. Parents have actually been shown in that case. Like, let's say a child lives in a violent neighborhood or a child lived somewhere where they're going to be dealing with stress all the time. Parents have been shown to be the factor that can actually ameliorate that stress and improve stress. But I also think that it's important to understand that kids are all different in their stress levels and something that comes from psychology is the idea of a child's temperament, which psychologists have actually said that you can tell this from when a baby is an infant based on crying times. It's something really interesting to look into. But there are kids who are resilient and in the literature, those kids have also been called "dandelion children" sometimes because they'll grow in any soil. It doesn't matter what area they're in, they basically can just get along with everyone they're Sunny sunshiny dandelion and they're really resilient. But there are slow to recover children, slow to warm up, and slow to recover where it takes them a little bit longer to get to know people. They're not super stressed but they're slow to warm up. Then there are children who are highly reactive or highly sensitive where there's lots of crying. Some people might call them difficult, but there's this really nice metaphor for kids like that calling them "Orchid Children," which means that they can be so beautiful, and you know if they're given the right support, they can really blossom and bloom. But they're also really sensitive so they're much more vulnerable to stress. And understanding where your child falls on the spectrum would be a really great idea for parents because you can probably leave the Dandelion child to their own devices a little bit more, and then that Orchid child you're going to need to make sure to support and nurture and really just give them more support for their stressors.

Jenny Woo: I love how you broke that down into different levels of need and in terms of stress. It's incredibly helpful. I mean I can think of so many different examples. For example, I have my three children and I can certainly point out who is the dandelion and who is the orchid.

Kara Mohler: In families, it happens all the time. One kid is an orchid and one kid is a dandelion and it's just...

Jenny Woo: Exactly. There were moments my husband and I were like "what's wrong with this child" or "what did we do wrong." But in fact, it's just who they are and if we could operate from a point of strength, recognizing what they need. I think that is so helpful. As a mom of three, there are certainly times where I would feel like I'm neglecting the dandelion. So, it's kind of like I'm not being fair to my children. But fairness is really everybody getting what they need on a very personal level. So, I love the example of the metaphor. Thank you so much.

Jenny Woo: Parting question: what are some additional tools, resources, information that we can find to learn more about stress management?

Kara Mohler: In terms of resources, I think that one really great place is the Center for the Developing Child. They have lots of information about stress. That's from Harvard University, but if you look them up, they've got really good videos that explain what's going on with a child and also the impact of stress. There are also many great apps for stress. You asked me what I do to destress, and I think that I didn't have all those coping mechanisms in place when I was on Jeopardy, but now for sure, I use mindfulness apps. I really like Headspace and they have it for kids. There are kid packs on Headspace and single packs that really make it developmentally friendly and there are lots of other free software that help your kids breathe and take a moment to consider what's happening to them in a moment of stress and understand their own emotions. I think that your cards will really help parents to have those conversations with their kids and to get great tips on what they're doing.

Jenny Woo: Thank you so much for so many great actionable tips. Thank you for listening to 52 Essential Conversation.

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Social Emotional Learning Topic: Perspective-Taking

Transcript for Podcast Lesson on Perspective-Taking with Dr. Clements

Jenny Woo: Hello everyone. I'm Jenny and you're listening to 52 Essential Conversations. Today, we have Lindsay Clements joining us to talk about Perspective-taking.

Jenny Woo: Lindsay is a Ph.D. candidate in Applied Developmental and Educational Psychology at Boston College. She researches how parent-child and peer-to-peer dialogue can impact early learning and executive function. She also has experience working with schools to build and implement learning support programs for struggling students and those with disabilities.

Jenny Woo: Welcome Lindsay. 

Lindsay Clements: Thanks for having me.

Jenny Woo: Tell us, what exactly is perspective-taking and why is it important?

Lindsay Clements: Perspective-taking is really what it sounds like. It's the ability to take another person's perspective into consideration. As researchers, we often think of that in a couple of different ways. One way that we can think about it is more from a visual perspective and understanding that if someone else is standing at a different place in a room or a classroom, that they're experiencing that classroom a little bit differently than we are. So, we can stop to think about what that experience is like for them--what they see and what they feel in that particular position. Another way that we can think about it is more from an empathetic or interpersonal perspective. And that's getting to know a person, understanding that they have different beliefs, likes and dislikes, than us. And understanding that because of that, they experience different situations, different people, even TV shows a little bit differently than we do and stopping to think what that is like for them. These both ways that we think about perspective-taking are important because both contribute to executive functioning and there are two ways that really happen. One is through what we call inhibition. In order to take another person's perspective, we really have to inhibit our own to take a few moments and put ourselves in another person's shoes and think about what this is like for them. The second way that supports executive function is through what we call cognitive flexibility. And that really means that we're switching in our brain between different perspectives. I'm situated in my own perspective. I take a moment to try to understand someone else's so I'm flexibly switching to their perspective and then I switch back to my own. By taking other people's perspective, whether it's from an emotional standpoint or just in thinking about what the space that they're in is like for them, we're supporting our own executive function and we're supporting kids and developing their executive functions.

Jenny Woo: This sounds like a really critical skill and I can already think of examples of when I wish my children could have a little bit more of those. For example, as parents, we've had a long day at work or just running errands coming back and there are times where I wish my children could take that perspective of mine and realize that I've had a hard day, I need a break right. Or, if my twins could understand each other and have fewer fights. Tell me, what can we do at home to encourage and build perspective-taking skills?

Lindsay Clements: One way that we can do it from kind of an activity fun thing to do perspective is to prompt children to do that. We could do that on the go. If we're driving in the car, we could ask our children "what do you think this park looks like for me versus you because I'm in the front seat and you're in the backseat?" Or, if we're at home and somebody is watching a TV show. Whether it's a children's cartoon or a show that you might like to watch, you can still comment on the different characters' emotional states and maybe prompt during the commercial break your child to role play and think about if you were this person in the show and this other thing happened to you, how do you think you would feel? You can also do that with something like a book character or even a character in a commercial.

Jenny Woo: That's great. And I know that role modeling is also very important. What can we as parents do ourselves to role model this type of perspective-taking for our children?

Lindsay Clements: One thing that's important to remember is that perspective-taking along with all executive functions are developmental skills so kids get better at it as they get older. You might want to think about how you can make role modeling more age-appropriate. For younger children, you might take the time to tell them a story in more detail about not only what happened to you in that particular story but how you felt and how someone else felt during it. Kids are beginning to understand that in any given situation there's a lot of different perspectives happening that are all interacting and cooperating. To build a different situation, for older kids you can do the same thing, but your questions might be a little bit more complex. There's a better understanding of more diverse emotions beyond just happy, sad, angry as children get older. You might ask more probing questions like "do you think they felt both happy and sad when this happened to them? What do you think would make them feel better?" And kind of just talking about how perspectives are complex and different things can be happening all at the same time.

Jenny Woo: That sounds great and that actually led me to think about how this is done in the classroom. I can certainly see the type of inquiry-based method done through writing and talking. Tell me what have you done as an educator, a teacher in the schools that you've worked at?

Lindsay Clements: One thing that I have seen a lot of my students enjoy is some of the more project-based learning where children have a lot of agency or input in what it is that they're going to be doing so they can choose a topic, choose how they research it and choose what their final product is--whether it's a paper, an art project, a video, they can work with their teacher to decide what it is that's most important to them and then students can look around and see that other students have different interests for them. Different preferences for how they go about their research for what kind of project that they want to produce and that can help them understand that what I'm doing is important to me for these reasons and I can ask other people what you are doing and why is that important to you.

Jenny Woo: Very useful. Lindsay, if I want to learn more about perspective-taking and even executive function skills. Where can I go?

Lindsay Clements: Executive functioning is becoming a more popular area of research as well as a more popular area of discussion for both parents and researchers in that partnership. There's a lot of resources through different projects, one of which I work on is called The DREME project, D.R.E.M.E. And that's out of Stanford University. There's a lot of researchers working on that around the country. We do a lot of work on the parent-child connection in terms of executive functioning and also as a secondary interest in math. We have a great website that has parent blogs as well as different research projects that we're working on and little blurbs about what those mean. I would encourage any interested parents or teachers, if they have a moment, to look at that website. We also linked to other parent resources or teacher resources that might be interesting for those who want to do a little deeper research on that topic.

Jenny Woo: That sounds great. I'll be checking it out soon. Thank you so much for your time, Lindsey for being here with us. And thank you for joining us for 52 Essential Conversations.